Dan Meyer (00:01):
Hey, folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m one of your hosts, Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:05):
And I am your other host. I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Season five! Hello!

Dan Meyer (00:11):
Bethany, how are you doing? How have you been spending the long break between our recording sessions?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:16):
As much as I loved sharing content from previous seasons, I am so thrilled that we’re back for season five. I have been, you know, chasing a toddler. I think he’s already tired of me saying, “Ooh, can we count that?” He’s like [sighs] “One two, one two.” Like, he’s done already.

Dan Meyer (00:36):
Too much counting. Yeah, I worry about that so much, that my love of mathematics might be perceived by my kids as smothering. Yeah, I worry about the same. We shared with you folks some bangers of reruns, in my humble opinion. Some great guests. But, we’ve been excited—me and Bethany—to hop back on the mics, on the ones and twos, and explore some new ideas together.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:01):
Well, I loved our season talking about joy in mathematics. And personally I could…like, we could turn this whole podcast into joy in mathematics. However, we’re kind of going a different route. Because if you ask folks why they don’t feel joy in mathematics, a lot of times at the root of that is some really intense math anxiety. So this whole season, we’re going to be delving into math anxiety. Exploring what it is, who has it, why do we think it happens, what do we think we can do about it, and how can we navigate through it, so that we can experience that joy in math? These are questions that we’re gonna explore over the course of the season. Dan Meyer, how do you feel about that?

Dan Meyer (01:49):
It feels big and it feels personal. I mean, as we shared in our math stories back from season…whatever it was, math anxiety was a huge part.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:59):
It was last season, Dan.

Dan Meyer (02:00):
Last…? I mean, who can remember? Big part of your journey. I’ve had some very punctuated but intense moments of anxiety in math class. And socially, we have built math up to be this incredibly powerful thing. You know, restricting movement on economic ladders, preventing people from getting into careers they want. Whether or not they have much to do with math class, math anxiety is a really large part of educational but also social life. And yeah, I’m really excited to explore it with you. We’re bringing on some really excellent guests. Some researchers, yes. But not just researchers! Also people who practice in the field and know firsthand what it looks like to resolve issues of anxiety with students.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (02:45):
Yeah, you’re right, Dan. My math story contained quite a bit of math anxiety, so I am particularly invested in this season. I mean, I still navigate math anxiety. And, you know, many of us do, and let’s talk about it. And let’s—I love that you reminded me. We’re gonna have a lot of great researchers all throughout the season, and a lot of times folks feel like the research happening, there’s sometimes a gap between researchers and what’s actually happening in the classroom. Not in all cases, but a lot of times. Right? And I remember a lot of conversation about the latest research when I was in grad school, but unless you’re actively studying something, sometimes we don’t know what’s happening. Right? We’re really focused on what’s happening right in front of us in our classroom. So let’s take some of that research; let’s break it down; let’s talk to some of the folks who are thinking about this for the bulk of their day, right?

Dan Meyer (03:41):
Yep. So we got our first guest coming up in a moment here.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:45):
So to kick off this season, we’re starting episode one by talking to Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University. And he’s been researching math anxiety for more than a decade. He’s worked with so many amazing folks in the field. He’s worked with students, he’s worked with teachers, with educators…I’m just so excited to talk to him. If you look up math anxiety, you see his name as one of the folks who is really thinking about this at so many different angles, and we get to talk to him. So enjoy our conversation with Dr. Gerardo Ramirez.

Dan Meyer (04:29):
We are so excited to have Dr. Gerardo Ramirez on the show with us. Dr. Ramirez is an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University. Thanks so much for joining us.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (04:40):
Yeah, thank you for inviting me to talk about math anxiety.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:43):
So with your interview, Dr. Ramirez, we are actually launching the season. We’re gonna be talking about all different aspects of math anxiety, and it feels pretty perfect that you are first guest of the season, because of the sheer breadth of research and conversations you’ve had about math anxiety. Could you start us off kind of telling us a story of how did you get interested in studying math anxiety? Or why, you know, why did you dive into this topic that, you know, I think a lot of folks might…like, if you’re on a plane, and you say, “Oh, I study math anxiety,” what kind of reaction are you gonna get?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (05:24):
Oh, sure. Yeah. I think most people are actually very interested because they all have their own story about feeling anxious about math, or just being anxious about evaluation situations that involve math. And, yeah, they wanna share those stories. People feel quite comfortable talking about their anxiety about math, for some reason. But for me, I started off, when I was in undergrad, I was studying to take the GRE quiz. I was hoping to go into a psych program. But I wasn’t exactly sure what direction yet. As I took some of the practice tests, there’s some situations in which I was very nervous about taking the practice test. And I just noticed that I did really poorly on some of these exams. And so I became very interested in issues like choking under pressure, which means when you underperform relative to what you expected to perform. And so, as I was researching these issues, I started to come across this whole field of math anxiety. And I saw that while there are some people who choke under pressure during tests, there are other people who just have a strong general fear of mathematics.

Dan Meyer (06:29):
That’s really helpful. I can imagine you’re doing a lot of free psychology sessions, free therapy for people on airplanes when they bring to you their own stories of math. So let’s thank you for your service in that sense. I’m super-curious. So Bethany and I have both taught math. We both have seen firsthand what it looks like when a student is anxious in math class, though maybe we don’t have kind of the clinical language to describe it. And I’m curious, from a clinical sense, how do we define math anxiety?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (06:57):
Sure. So first off, math anxiety is not something that you would find in the DSM, for instance. But we generally define that as a fear or apprehension to situations that involve math. So it doesn’t have to necessarily be educational situations. It could be someone asks you a math-related question during a party, or you have to calculate the tip at a restaurant, for instance. It doesn’t have to be about schooling situations, although that’s obviously where it seems to matter a lot for many people. So it is basically a fear or apprehension to situations that involve math. And I think distinguishing the term “fear” from “anxiety” is really important here. A lot of times people use those terms interchangeably, and the term “fear” is obviously within our definition of math anxiety. But oftentimes what differentiates anxiety from fear is that, anxiety is—think of it like a recipe. Anxiety is fear plus a little bit of unknown. OK? So if, for instance, if you hated snakes, and they threw a snake at you, you’d be in intense fear. Whereas if you hated snakes and they said, “There is a snake in the room, but I’m not gonna tell you where,” that’s gonna cause anxiety. And so the reason why we call it math anxiety is because a lot of times people experience this fear for a possible unknown future that involves math or possible unknown evaluations that people might have about your competence, because of math. And so for a lot of kids, they feel anxious about how they’re gonna do on a test or whether they’re gonna be able to pass a class or whether they’ll be able to understand what you’re saying in your lessons, for instance. And so the anxiety component really gets at fear of something that’s unknown, but related to mathematics situations.

Dan Meyer (08:47):
Math is somewhere in the ceiling right now. Perhaps I might be surprised with a math situation!

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (08:52):
Yeah. yep.

Dan Meyer (08:52):
So I have this tendency to assume that every other subject that we teach has it better and easier than math does. It’s not true. I know this is not true. But I’m kind of curious here. Is math anxiety, like, part of a general just set of anxiety around schooling itself? Like, is there a reading anxiety, a writing anxiety, and does that all just flow from the same kind of fount of anxiety around schooling or situations about learning? And what makes math special in this regard? If it is its own special anxiety, for instance?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (09:27):
There are different…so some people obviously suffer from generalized anxiety. Right? And so they would, you know, feel anxious both for evaluative and non-evaluative situations. But in the research that we’ve done and that other people have done, there are differences between things like reading anxiety, math anxiety; I’ve also studied spatial and creativity anxiety. A lot of times what we’re trying to do in these studies is we measure all of the above, and we try to show that, look, math anxiety predicts math situations above and beyond these other things. So yeah, we definitely distinguish those things. And so what’s special about math is that, well, I think the symbolic nature is a big part of it. The abstract symbolic nature is just not as tangible to students. They can’t touch it. And so it doesn’t allow ’em to use their full cognitive faculties to play with it, as you might see, for instance, in science. Or it doesn’t allow people to relate math to their own interests the way you might see, for instance, in English. So maybe I hate reading novels, but I’m interested in zombies and you give me a book on zombies, well, ok, great, you’ve connected my personal assets to the topic. Whereas with math, either that’s harder to do or instructors don’t do such a good job of setting that connection up.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:46):
Also, I think, you know, I’ve heard of students being really anxious, let’s say, during a reading session, when teachers used to do—hopefully they’re still not doing it—the popcorn reading, where you just randomly call on a student to read out a sentence. Right? But you don’t really hear students or adults talking about, “Oh, no, no, no, I don’t read; I don’t mess with reading.” You know? Whereas with math, you do hear, “Oh, I’m not a math person. Oh no, no, no, don’t ask me any math questions.” And that is such a distinction.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (11:18):
Yeah. And I think a lot of that’s because it’s just so common. As an adult, to be nervous about reading is kind of an uncommon thing. So people feel a stigma around admitting that. But math is something that everyone feels like they’re inadequate in. And so there’s a lot of comfort in telling you how they’re just one of the many people who don’t like math. And that, you know, can have a lot of different consequences and outcomes. I think on the one hand, I think for a lot of kids it becomes a normalized message that if you fear math, that’s OK, join the club. Right? But we have to be careful about that, ’cause a lot of math anxiety researchers will oftentimes say, part of what leads to math anxiety is adults normalizing that it’s OK to be scared of math. So I think a lot of times adults, teachers, for instance, math teachers, they’ll tell kids, “You know, if you’re scared, that’s OK.” And so a lot of the math anxiety community says, “No, no, no, you’re not supposed to do that.” But my recent view is different. I view that as a form of validation. Because math is hard. And so telling kids, “Hey, look, it’s actually easy if you just try,” I don’t think that’s true. It’s actually just hard. And I think even if it was easy, to the kid, it feels hard! And I think something that’s not really well-studied right now in our field is the value of validating people’s math negative math experiences. We don’t want to validate that, ’cause we think that we’re gonna reinforce that. But actually, I think the opposite. I think when you validate people’s negative math experiences, it helps ’em to feel that they can handle it. They can start to take control over their own emotions.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (12:52):
I love that. And I, I actually, I think that’s so powerful, what you’re talking about, that validation. I taught kindergarten, and I vividly remember being in a parent-teacher conference and that parent saying, “Oh, I wasn’t a math person either,” right? Or, you know, their language and their experience with their own math schooling, their anxiety about math was actually impacting their students’ experience of math. Or the conversation that, when I would go to talk about a math assessment, let’s say, you could see the parent actually tensing up. And there was this moment of validation, that I felt like we needed to make space for that in the conversation with the parents, right?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (13:38):
Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (13:38):
Like, this is a real thing. And we are working on teaching students that math is something that gets to—your experience with math gets to look all sorts of different ways. And it’s OK if we, you know, make a mistake, or if we kind of only get this part, but we’ve really got that part. Or let’s talk about it; let’s write about it. So I really feel like that that validation is something that’s so missing. And instead of the validation, like you said, you see folks being like, “Oh yeah, me neither. I’m not a math person either.” Right?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (14:10):
Yeah. I think…part of the reason why people are comfortable sharing this because they’re looking for validation also. When they say, “Oh, I’m not a math person,” you know, I think they’re hoping that, you’ll say like, “Yeah, me neither,” or “Of course not, ’cause math is terrible.” Right? They’re looking for validation, not to reinforce their perspective, but to feel that it’s OK not to be a math person. And I think that’s one of the techniques that I’m trying to work on in my research right now, is to provide evidence that actually people will work harder when you validate their math experience. You don’t have to tell them a positive story per se. If your current story is “Math is hard and I’m very, very anxious; I’m scared,” then we can just validate that and help you work through that. And it actually will strengthen our relationships. Because if you’re a student and you’re struggling with math and I tell you, “Yeah, it’s hard; it’s OK to struggle with math,” that makes you feel seen. And that’s gonna lead you to want to ask me more for help, because I’m someone who understands you. And that’s a great, you know, remediation opportunity.

Dan Meyer (15:14):
A common thread that I think I’m seeing here in several answers is that math sometimes asks students to disassociate part of themselves. Where success in math oftentimes means working from an a level of abstraction with symbols, like you said, that can feel alien. Like, who am I here? And in the same way, I love that you’re proposing we validate and reassociate people with a very deeply felt part of themselves that is anxious about mathematics.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (15:44):
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s what validation’s supposed to do, right? So a lot of us, when we feel these strong emotions, we wonder, “Is this even a real thing? Are other people feeling this? Is there something wrong with me?” So we feel the emotions, but we can’t actually deal with them, because we wonder if they’re legitimate. And so when someone says, like, “Yeah, this is hard,” it crystallizes that emotion. And once something is made real, you can actually choose how you want to deal with it. Some kids are gonna deal with it by staying anxious. But some people are gonna choose to deal with it by saying, “Well, there’s nothing I can do about it now; I have to take this math test, so I’m just gonna think positive.” And that’s great. If the kid can end up saying that to themselves, that’s much more effective than me telling the kid, “Hey, you just gotta think positive. You’re gonna start the test anyway.” And so we want the kid to make meaning of their experience, and the way we do that is by crystallizing their emotions through validation.

Dan Meyer (16:36):
Yeah. I love that. And so what you’re proposing there, I think, sounds like, a solution, like a post-talk solution after students are feeling anxiety.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (16:43):
Yes.

Dan Meyer (16:43):
To validate and empathize.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (16:45):
Yes.

Dan Meyer (16:45):
And over the course of our season, we hope to explore a lot about solutions to math anxiety that are preventative, that reduce the odds of anxiety arising, through instruction and curriculum, before it arises. And I’m just wondering if you’ve seen anything that would hint at either specific or general words of wisdom you wanna share with the educators, about not just addressing it after the fact, but preventing math anxiety before it arises?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (17:14):
To be honest, at this point, I haven’t seen enough evidence for me to recommend anything concretely as an intervention for math anxiety, or an intervention to prevent its development. All I can really do here is rely a lot on the more broad cognitive-behavioral research on anxiety, which says that one of the ways we prevent people from developing anxiety is by helping them to make more positive appraisals of challenge situations. So a lot of times, when kids are challenged, they don’t know how to interpret that. “What does it mean that I’m struggling with this thing?” And so that’s where I think a lot of teachers can help students’ interpretations of that. ‘Cause if you leave kids to their own devices, they’re gonna think, “I’m struggling because I’m stupid. I’m struggling because I’m not good enough. I’m struggling because my dad is right; I’m gonna be a failure.” You know? They’re going to impose an interpretation to a challenge situation regardless. And so, as teachers, one thing we can do is we can help shape that interpretation and say, “What does it mean to struggle with math? People will say it means you’re stupid. That’s one interpretation. What’s another one? It means that your brain is working really hard to think through something. That’s another interpretation. What’s better? What do you think is more helpful?” And then, helping students to see how interpretations matter to how you ultimately feel about something. And that’s a very metacognitive way of thinking about things. So yeah, I would say that one way to prevent it is to help students to take more positive interpretations of their experience. But another way, and I think a more successful way, I think, is to give students early experiences where they feel efficacious dealing with math. One of the ways you do that, for instance, is by obviously making sure that the students understand the material—but that’s obvious; people are trying to do that. One of my favorite recommendations is to keep reassigning assignments, the same exact assignment, for, say, three weeks, back-to-back. So if in week one you do the homework assignment, you do OK, you don’t do so great, when week two you do it, you give the exact same assignment, and now the student can see like, “Wow, OK, this was much easier.” And then, week three, you give the exact same assignment; now the kid’s feeling really confident. And the reason why that’s great is because it helps kids to see that they’re growing in confidence. A lot of times kids don’t get to see that because we’re constantly throwing new assessments at them. And so they’re never seeing that growth. All they’re seeing is a new challenge, a new challenge, a new challenge. So I think we need to set up situations where they can feel that they’re growing, when we keep the assessment static. That can be a formative assessment, for instance—doesn’t have to be a summative assessment.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (19:55):
That feels so powerful and it feels like it really connects to that validation piece, right? We are actually helping to create a culture in our math classroom where we might struggle with something, but we keep revisiting it. And it’s not so much to reach mastery, but as Dr. Megan Franke — we talked to her about this partial understanding and about pulling on those threads of things that you do understand, so that you can build your confidence…build, not just confidence, but build your…I guess, kind of get your footing, right? You’re saying, “Well, I do understand this. I see how this works.” And if I’m revisiting an assignment, I feel like that would give me permission to like, “Hey, I don’t have to have this figured out on the first pass. You know?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (20:44):
Yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, I’m gonna give you a silly analogy, but I think it works. You know, a lot of times people will have nightmares, right? And they’ll keep having the same nightmare over and over again, right? And so one reason that we suspect this happens is because they haven’t worked through whatever that nightmare’s supposed to be about. So if, say, I’m scared of driving, I may be having the same dream about driving and crashing over and over. And we keep having these nightmares. And I think math anxiety is kind of like a waking nightmare, where you keep rehashing something because you haven’t had the chance to finally address that dragon. You know? And so if someone was having a lot of fear over driving, then one behavioral approach would be, you know, to work with a therapist to actually get behind the wheel and maybe drive around the same track over and over until you feel comfortable at that, and then the nightmares stop. Well, the same thing is true, I think, about math, math and math anxiety, is that you wanna give people these opportunities to feel confident by going back to that original experience that caused them to feel anxious, and saying, “This one assignment that we did in week three that really freaked you out, let’s try it again now in week five. How was that?” “Yeah, it wasn’t so bad. It was still kind of annoying.” “OK, we’ll we’ll come back to it.” “Now it’s week seven. Now let’s go back to that assignment. How is it now?” “That’s actually…it wasn’t that terrible.” And that gives people the opportunity to reflect on how they’ve grown past that nightmare.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:05):
I have to say, Dan talked about you being like a therapist. I’m like, wait, “How did you know, Dr. Ramirez? I did have this recurring dream! I did! And I had to face it. No, but I had such intense math anxiety in high school and it was debilitating. And the biggest thing for me, I thought I was the only one. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought, “Why can’t I figure this out?” There wasn’t a conversation about “Here are some tools,” or “Here are some, some, some…”. Like, “This is OK, for you to feel scared about this or overwhelmed!”

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (22:41):
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:42):
You know, I think often when we talk about how widespread math anxiety is, I think a lot of folks automatically jump to high schoolers or college students avoiding math courses. But we see this in really young kids.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (22:56):
Yeah. So people are…people are just constantly making meaning of themselves, regardless of the age range. And that’s true even with young kids; they are trying to figure out who they are. Right? And so one of the things you see oftentimes with young kids is you ask ’em, “What are you good at?” And they say, “Everything!” And that’s their attempt to, you know, make meaning of themselves. But sometimes they’re not good at everything. Sometimes they actually struggle in math. And I think even early on, they have to make meaning of that. They say, “Well, I’m good at everything except math.” And how do you make sense of that? Well, why not math? “Oh, because math is terrible. It’s not for everybody. You know, it’s not something that I like.” And so, yeah, in a lot of the studies that we did early on, we basically went into these first-grade classrooms with the purpose of trying to assess whether we can actually show variability in kids’ math anxiety, even early on. In other other words, do kids even report feeling anxious about math situations? Or do they tell us that they’re great at everything? And what we found was that in fact, a good chunk of kids are, again, perfectly willing to tell you that “No, certain situations involving math make me very anxious.” Counting or addition, or doing a problem on the board. And the way we do that is by—I think there are probably more sophisticated ways that can be done, but this is the best we have at this point—is we go in there and we ask them, we show them a bunch of smiley faces and anxious faces. And we say, “I want you to tell me how you feel about these different situations that involve math.” And so we say, “If you feel kind of nervous, I want you to point to this face. If you feel very nervous, point to this face.” And we basically will read to them situations. We’ll say, “How would you feel if your teacher asked you to open up your new math textbook and you saw all the numbers inside of it?” And they’ll point to the really nervous face. So right now, those are some of the more reliable assessments for math anxiety among young kids. And that work showed us that even young kids are self-reporting math anxiety.

Dan Meyer (24:51):

Obviously this is worth our study, because we would hope people would not feel anxious in general, and especially if we have a mandated…kids are mandated to be in math classes for their entire childhood. So I see the need for this study, these studies. I’m curious: What are the consequences, though? Like what, what correlates with math anxiety? What are other reasons why we should care about math anxiety and work to remediate it?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (25:16):
Oh, sure. So it correlates with their actual math performance. It can correlate when they choose to do homework. Right? So a lot of times, the parents report having to fight with their kids over math homework a lot. And you also oftentimes see a lot of frustration over mathematics specifically. And so it can, you know, not only affect their academic ongoing outcomes, like math tests and math assignments, but it can also affect their relationship with their parents. So if every time you come home, your dad’s screaming at you because you haven’t done your math homework, and when he asks you to solve the problem in front of them, you don’t remember, ’cause you were checked out, ’cause you’re so stressed out, that’s gonna cause a really negative experience. You know, a lot of times people grow up and they still remember their dad screaming at them over the math homework. You know, it’ll affect your relationship with your teacher. So if you’re making me feel incompetent, if you’re stressing me out, you’re not the kind of person I wanna come to for help. So it can predict relational outcomes as well as academic outcomes. And down the line, of course, when it affects students’ opportunities to get into things like AP classes, it affects students standardized test performance and their choice of colleges, as well as scholarship opportunities.

Dan Meyer (26:29):
Once you show that it correlates to performance, then that opens up a whole range of other correlations that are pretty important, it sounds like. Whether that’s career options or, you know, post-secondary education and the like.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (26:40):
Yeah. And a lot of times, when people are choosing a career at college, a lot of times students will make a decision specifically based on what career has less math requirements or less math courses. So I think this finding needs to be verified further. But, there’s some studies showing that, for instance, elementary ed teachers, one factor that feeds into the decision to go into elementary ed is the math requirements are very low in elementary ed. So that can…obviously it’s not what we wanna hear, because these are our first formal math teachers, right? For our kids.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:16):
It feels so powerful, the impact that math anxiety can have, not only while you’re in, let’s say, elementary school, high middle school, high school, but then the impacts beyond that in terms of your career. And I shared this last season, when we talked about our personal math story, but I know when I was navigating the deepest part of my math anxiety, I really felt like, maybe this is a reason I can’t be an elementary school teacher. Because I was so worried that I wouldn’t be able…not that I wouldn’t understand the math for fourth grade, fifth grade, but that there was something about my ability to teach it or understand it or develop a love and passion for it that I wouldn’t be able to do. And I really had to reclaim it in my own way. But, you know, something that I think is so powerful about your research is just the applicability — not only to the field of mathematics, but folks’ everyday lives. And the way that you have talked in the past about math being a gatekeeper…I have a family member who, brilliant American Sign Language interpreter. I mean, amazing. Like a dance with her fingers. I could just watch it all day. And she actually didn’t complete the program because she couldn’t complete the math requirements. And I remember talking to her about like, “Well, have you gone to the free tutoring? Have you gone to, you know, this or that?” But it was a paralyzing fear, you know? So Dr. Ramirez, what do you wish educators understood about math anxiety? Or the research about math anxiety? Or maybe even the general public at large, what do you wish folks understood about math anxiety?

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (28:58):
Oh, I think that a lot of students, they struggle with math. And I think we wanna normalize that struggle as much as possible. We want to create a culture where it’s OK to do math slow; it’s ok to take your time. And I know that’s not possible with a lot of these requirements that a lot of math teachers have to do. But I think if we want to prevent math anxiety, we have to create opportunities to tell better stories. So that’s ultimately what I tell people is, why do people develop math anxiety? Because they had experiences that challenged their competency and they told a negative story. And so making space to reflect in math classrooms about what does it mean to go slow in math, or what does it mean to make mistakes, and then helping kids to tell better stories, I think it’s really the best thing we can do as math educators. ‘Cause you know, your job is not to be a therapist ultimately. You know, there’s only so much math teachers can do. But I think one of the most powerful things we can create is setting up students’ experiences where they feel confident, and they can tell better stories, so they can have better dreams about math.

Dan Meyer (30:06):
Really appreciate this introduction to math anxiety. It’s been a fantastic kickoff to our season. Dr. Ramirez, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez (30:14):
Sure. Thank you.

Dan Meyer (30:16):
Thank you folks so much for listening to that conversation with Dr. Gerardo Ramirez, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at Ball State University.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (30:25):
Dan, OK, if not for your frantic signaling, I would’ve probably asked another 20 questions. I need to know what you thought .

Dan Meyer (30:34):
I found it interesting at all points. And especially I think I started to understand a little bit better where the anxiety comes from for some students. I got a little bit here, which is that I think math, more than other disciplines, involves alienation. Check that word. You like that? Alienation? I’m into it. I’m feeling it. It’s like…to get good at math, to be successful in math, you gotta, as a kid, lose your attachment to the world you understand. And I mean, “got to” as in like, “you are asked to” — many times, unfortunately, by curriculum and instruction. Which is to say, you’re turning things you can hold onto into numerals. Right? You’re turning the world and its patterns that you can see and touch into Xs and Ys. And I just don’t know that other disciplines deal with that as much. Maybe I’m wrong and just guilty of, you know, “grass is always greener” syndrome here. But I think that’s an experience that kids have in math. And I thought that Dr. Ramirez got at that when he’s talking about the need to validate a student’s experience of anxiety. Like, in treating anxiety, sometimes we alienate people further by just like saying, “Oh, no, no, no, it’s just like, you need to, you know, drill yourself more, practice more,” and kind of invalidate that. So this feeling of alienation, I think permeates a lot of math instruction. I’m looking forward to learning more about that with our future episodes

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:00):
Alienation. That’s interesting. I definitely felt, I definitely felt isolated and alone many times in my math journey, when I was having my…you know, in high school, when I was feeling like, “Clearly everyone can look at tan, sign, cosign, and that means something to them.” Right? I think it’s really interesting, because I’m thinking about the other disciplines; I’m running through them, and I’m like, even in science, which can seem abstract, so oftentimes there’s these experiments that accompany these concepts, where you’re like, “Look at this concept made real in front of you.” Right? . And so yeah, that’s really interesting.

Dan Meyer (32:39):
You’re always one step away from blowing something up! Or, you know, dissecting something that’s tangible to you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (32:46):
Yeah. That’s really interesting. I did really love how he brought up the abstract. And how, I think, even validating it…he talked so much about validation. Which to me was like, YES. If somebody just said, “Hey, it’s not only possible to have math anxiety, but it also doesn’t mean that you don’t belong here.” If somebody had said that, it would’ve literally changed the trajectory, you know? And I wonder what those conversations could look like in our classrooms, where teachers celebrate that. Like, WHOA, this is a new way to think of this. This is a new way. Asking how many, or what do you notice for this image, through a mathematical lens, or looking…we talked to Alison Hintz and Antony Smith, like mathematizing books, like looking through these lenses — it’s an invitation to step into this other world, right? But there’s not only one way to do it. And I think oftentimes it’s like that anxiety of “Am I gonna say the right thing?” or “Am I gonna notice the right thing?” Right? How do we create that space more, where there’s so many possibilities and we want kiddos to notice what they notice, right?

Dan Meyer (33:54):
You gotta become a certain kind of person to be successful in math class. I feel like is part of the implied deal. Where you’ve gotta—like how you said—say a certain thing or think about a certain thing a certain kind of way. You’re trying to become someone who is not necessarily you. Which I think is fundamentally an experience of alienation, separating you from important parts of yourself.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (34:19):
I will never, ever dive into mathematics on the scale and level that you have with your PhD. You understand math in a way that my brain just…I won’t get there, right? And yet I’m allowed to call myself a mathematician, with all of my deep dives in elementary math and my love of early numeracy and thinking about how we start thinking about counting and numbers. Right? It’s like, if we make more space for what mathematicians can look like, and what is your personal relationship with math…I mean, that to me feels really exciting. ‘Cause I think we both have something to offer each other.

Dan Meyer (35:03):
I think I have never found early math more interesting than when I talk to early math educators. And learn just like all the different ways that students come to understand a concept that I had thought was simple. Like addition of whole numbers. Whoa! There’s a lot of ways kids do that work, and their brains think those thoughts. And, yeah. That’s a good word there you’re offering us and our listeners.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:27):
Yeah. Yeah. I’m really excited about this season. I think there’s — again, there’s no way we’re gonna cover all facets of math anxiety. But I think having the chance to explore it over the course of a season is going to be really fascinating. And really, I hope, destigmatize it and open up the conversation for our listeners. And, you know, if you listeners…we wanna know what you thought of this episode. Do you have any particular questions? Do you have questions related to math anxiety? Questions related to this episode? We are in development for this season, so we’re gonna do our best to get those questions answered. You can keep in touch with us in our Facebook discussion group, Math Teacher Lounge Community, and on Twitter at MTLshow.

Dan Meyer (36:14):
Next time, we’re gonna go deeper into the causes and consequences of math anxiety.

Dr. Erin Maloney (36:20):
It’s not just the case that people who are bad at math are anxious about it. It’s actually that the anxiety itself can cause you to do worse in math. And that for me is really exciting, ’cause it means that if we can change your mindset, then we can really set you on a path with several more options available to you.

Dan Meyer (36:41):
Til next time folks,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:41):
Bye.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (00:00):

Coaching is the opportunity to provide that just-in-time kind of professional development for teachers, if we go at it in a slightly different way.

Dan Meyer (00:10):

Hey folks, welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. I’m your host, Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:14):

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson.

Dan Meyer (00:16):

Bethany, how are you doing, and how are you feeling about our current trajectory through this exploration of math anxiety?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:24):

Dan, I gotta tell you — let me make it about me for a second. <laugh>.

Dan Meyer (00:29):

Go. Do it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (00:30):

If only I had known that so many other people experienced math anxiety, and I wasn’t the only one. I mean, I’ve said it before, but you know, I hope that this series so far is helping to reframe math anxiety for folks who maybe have a narrow definition of it … and I guess expand, reframe. And also, for those folks who are working with students who have math anxiety, or who they themselves have experienced math anxiety, I hope they’ve found some tools, some resources. Right? Like, “Yes!”

Dan Meyer (01:04):

Yes! Same.

New Speaker (01:06):

And what about you? How are you feeling?

Dan Meyer (01:08):

Yeah, I hope this has been cathartic for all of our listeners who have experienced math anxiety, and not re-traumatizing, that there are lots of people who feel this way about math in particular. And that it’s so well-experienced, so broadly experienced, that people have decided to study it a whole bunch. Which is great. And now we’re moving into our kind of solutioning. You know, in my relationships, I’m sometimes told that I rush too quickly to solutions before trying to understand what’s going on. So I’ve loved our episodes that have been about what is going on. And now, with Dr. Truglio last episode and our guest today, we’re moving more into some solutions, which I’m excited about.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (01:49):

I don’t know, Dan, I think next time I see you I’m gonna bring a list of some concerns or worries I have, and I would love if you just get right to the solution. I’m actually OK with that.

Dan Meyer (02:01):

All right. Good to know. Good to know. I’ll say I am coming off of a day where I was feeling some teacher anxiety today, because I taught really real students. So just to let you know where I’m coming from here. I taught some seventh grade students at Montera Middle, here in Oakland Unified School District. Taught ’em a lesson outta the Desmos curriculum. And it was one of those lessons where some thorny stuff comes up. I’m talking students who are wrong for smart reasons, who are right for the wrong reasons, and their minds are working so hard trying to figure out inequalities. And I’m like trying to just step into that process as an educator with some curriculum and help shape those ideas. But it’s just … I don’t know, you want it to be as easy as like, “let me just show you how it’s done a few times, and now you got it.” But whew, some of these ideas, they take a long time to form up and they’re really easily reshaped by lots of stuff going on. So that’s where I’m at, anxiety-wise, right now. The teacher anxiety stuff.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (03:04):

I think there’s probably plenty of teachers who do kind of just say, this is how you do it. And so, from what I have seen of your teaching and what I know of the Desmos curriculum, it is such an opportunity to think hard about the things that we are assuming about our students, assuming about what we know about the math itself. And yeah, that requires some thought.

Dan Meyer (03:30):

Yeah, for sure. I came in ready, like, “When you multiply both sides of an inequality by a negative, this sign flips around.” And I could just say that to kids and say, “Hey, remember that! Write that down!” And a lot of them would do it really well, you know, provided the assessment problems looked like ones we’ve gone over in class. And they’re also learning — in addition to that math, they’re learning that math is a giant sack of tricks they gotta memorize, right? So there’s just these pros and cons. And at the end of the one period I’m gonna teach this week, I was like, “Well, your teacher’s gonna go over that tomorrow, when they’re with you instead of me.” So it felt a bit like I copped out on that one. And I’m just in in my feelings about that right now. And I’m gonna try to come on down here and be present in the math-anxiety world.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:25):

I appreciate you sharing that, Dan. And I think … I have a feeling that you could write a pretty catchy rhyme to allow the students to flip and <starting to rap> “multiply by negative. and dit-dit-dit-dit.” Can you feel it? You picking up that beat?

Dan Meyer (04:40):

Ooh, yeah. A nice little beat. Uh-huh. Yup.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (04:41):

Yeah. You know, you could come up with something pretty clever, and yet you did not lean on your wordsmithing skills. You said, “No, let us dive in.” So what are you gonna do with this lesson, by the way? What happens now? You popped in for one period, and then what happens?

Dan Meyer (05:03):

Yeah. So this is gonna be a blast. I hope you folks tune in. We’re gonna actually release the footage of me teaching this lesson live. You know, it’ll be replayed live. And on top of that, a couple of my favorite teacher coaches and just smart people about teaching are going to be giving commentary. They are gonna be giving the director’s commentary, the sports announcers’ commentary on what they’re seeing. I beg for their generosity in their commentary. But I think it’ll be a lot of fun. I’ve never seen anything like this before, a commentary track on top of a teaching lesson, in this way. So I’m just gonna gonna be excited to see what they noticed that I didn’t, what they might have done, the thoughts they might have. Maybe I’ll do a post-game interview, you know.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:50):

Ooh, yes!

Dan Meyer (05:50):

With my towel around my neck, <laugh> looking all sweaty.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (05:54):

Ready, set, grow!

Dan Meyer (05:55):

Like, “Yup, we gave it all out there, you know, just a real team effort.” You know, that kind of thing. We’ll see how that goes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:02):

I actually love that idea. I love that it’s not just this one random lesson that just kind of floats out there, and it’s about, you walk away with whatever feelings you have, and the students obviously walk away, but that this is gonna help other educators.

Dan Meyer (06:17):

Yeah. Yeah. We’ll multiply my anxiety and make it more people’s anxiety. We’ll see how that goes. So stay tuned on the Math Teacher Lounge feed for that. All right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (06:25):

All right! And speaking of anxiety, Dan Meyer, we gotta get to today’s show. You know, last time we had some amazing strategies for helping students from Dr. Truglio from Sesame Workshop. I gotta tell you, I sent that episode to so many of my friends, like, “Listen to these ideas!” and have had some interesting follow-up conversations. And we would love to hear what you think about this season so far, at MTLShow on Twitter or in our Facebook group, Math Teacher Lounge. So today, we’re gonna focus on strategies for supporting teachers.

Dan Meyer (07:00):

Yes. Which is why we’re so excited to bring to you folks Heidi Sabnani, who — we’ve had researchers. We’ve had Sesame Workshoppers. And Heidi Sabnani has been a classroom teacher; she’s teacher-consultant; newly minted doctoral degree holder. We’re so pumped to bring to you folks: Heidi Sabnani.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:25):

Dr. Sabnani, thank you for being here. Can we call you Dr. Heidi? What would you. …

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (07:31):

You can just call me Heidi. Yeah. Heidi is good.

Dan Meyer (07:36):

Right on.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:36):

1. Heidi, thank you for joining us in the Lounge. We’re so excited to talk with you.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (07:41):

I am super-honored to be here. It’s really exciting and I just really appreciate the opportunity.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (07:47):

I will say I don’t have a PhD, although the two people I’m talking with right now, both do, and you’re both like holding up your degrees as we speak and saying, “Wah-wah.” But I imagine that if I did, I’d wanna throw that doctor in more frequently, so.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (08:02):

Well—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:03):

If I sneak in a “Doctor,” Heidi, it’s only out of respect.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (08:05):

1. I appreciate it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:07):

Dan makes me call him Dr. Meyer all the time.

Dan Meyer (08:10):

You don’t call me Dr. Dan or Dr. Meyer, ever. So—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:13):

I will now!

Dan Meyer (08:14):

—this respect only goes towards Dr. Heidi, it seems. But yeah, we’ll take that off the air.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (08:19):

Well, we are going to delve into your research on math anxiety soon, because I actually — speaking of becoming a doctor, a new doctor, I have some questions. We have questions about your research, but on a personal level, I really appreciated the way that you share that you yourself experienced math anxiety as a student. So I’m wondering if you could tell us a bit about your own math anxiety, your <laugh> journey through math.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (08:50):

Yeah, so much like the people in the research that I did, and with the research that I read by others, many of us can tie the beginnings — or like the evil villain origin story of math anxiety — to a particular event, or series of events. And my series of events started, the big blow-up, I guess, in fourth grade. And I had had some struggles in school — I have mild dyslexia and dyscalculia. And so I had always been in the special group of kids who got some extra attention <laugh> from the teacher, or from an aide, or whoever happened to be in the room. But in fourth grade — at that time, they taught multiplication and division facts in fourth grade. Many, many moons ago. And I struggled greatly with just understanding what was happening and why we were moving so quickly. And, my teacher was probably not the best person to be entrusted with my learning at the time. Like, her style may have been OK for others, but it was obvious that she felt like kind of wasting her time with some people in the classroom. And I happened to be one of those people.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:26):

Mmm. You said that really diplomatically, though. <Laugh>

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (10:30):

Well, you know, you look back at things from the perspective of many years. And having made lots of mistakes myself in the classroom as a teacher, I try to give some grace to things that happened, and how you remember them. Yeah, that’s my story, but maybe she had a different one, right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (10:55):

Yeah. But fourth grade Heidi was still, you know, still experiencing that. Yeah.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (11:01):

Yeah. Fourth-grade Heidi didn’t like being in the “dumb group” and didn’t like being told that she would probably not graduate from high school. So that was kind of the general environment. And I got further and further behind in math. The dyslexia was less and less of an issue the older I got, because I had great comprehension. And so I could figure out the fluency thing just by the pattern of language, because mine is mild in comparison to so many who struggle with that. But math was not working in that same way. And I got more and more behind and to the point where I was having to stay in every day at recess. And I had had it after like a month. Like, I’m not staying in at recess anymore to do this math that I don’t understand, by myself. Like, not doing it. So I—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (11:53):

Which, by the way, if there’s one way to make you hate it, <laugh> like, to engender, to endear you to a subject, could it be, “Let’s have you stay in at recess”?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (12:07):

Right. And so one day I just stormed out of the classroom, I was like, “I’m not coming. I’m not staying, I’m not doing this anymore. I’m done.” And I can remember her standing up at the top of the hill screaming at me to come back, and I was like, “No way. Not doing it. Done with this.” I went to a parochial school, though, and my dad is a pastor. So that whole little incident blew up in the greater community in a way that I didn’t really anticipate as a fourth grader. And my parents had no idea that this was going on. And so they were shocked and dismayed that their — up until that point — oldest child, rule-follower, had done this. But then even more upset when they found out what was happening with my math understanding, or lack thereof. And they did what they knew best at the time. So my mom was a great memorizer. She has a brain like an elephant. And my dad grew up in the British system in India and Singapore, and it was at that time very much based on memorization. And so they were like, “We are gonna just work really hard. We’re gonna buckle down and do this thing <laugh>.” And so that’s what we did, and that’s where all of it began. It was not — it was just about “We’re gonna learn the facts. We’re not gonna ask questions; we’re not gonna think about it, because it’s just the rules. And if you can figure out the rules or the system or what the teacher wants, and mimic what the teacher is doing, then you’ll be successful.” And it was really successful for me, once I figured that out all the way through. My whole goal in high school when I took high school math was to take enough math courses with a high-enough GPA that when I got my BA in college, that I would never have to take math again. And I succeeded in that and got an English degree and a Master’s in world lit. And I was in no way doing math ever again.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (14:31):

But little did you know that Future You was going to be researching math anxiety. How did you wind up researching it then? How did you wind up researching math anxiety?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (14:43):

So I took a job in school improvement when I was working in Ohio, after a number of years teaching high school English in Southern California and Guatemala and Michigan, all over the place. And I took a job in school improvement with a co-consultant who was gonna be doing the math end, and I was gonna be doing the literacy end, and we were just gonna go in, and I was gonna make kids love reading, and she was gonna make kids love math, and it was gonna be so fun. And then she decided she didn’t like working with adults and they couldn’t find anyone else. And my boss said, “So you’re just gonna do both for the rest of the year.” After that year, I got requested to go back and, and do this again. I said, “Well, if I’m gonna do this, I’m going to go back and reteach myself the math in ways that I wish that fourth-grade Heidi had learned it, and fourth-grade-and-up Heidi had learned it.” And so that was like the, the beginning of the switch. And so now equal amounts of time in my career have been spent in both. But when I started, when I continued working, when I left the classroom to continue working with teachers, and when I transitioned more into an elementary setting, I began to notice the same behaviors that I had in high school of avoiding math, and avoiding teaching math, were happening in the classrooms that I was supporting. And so I would have teachers come and say, “Oh, can we talk about this literacy thing?” And even if it was like a math meeting, or we were supposed to split the time evenly, and ohhh, for some reason the literacy time talk would just like move over <laugh>. And then there was no time to talk about math at the end. And “Oh, that’s just too bad.” Like, we’re just gonna move on to this next thing. Funny how that happens, right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (16:32):

Yeah. <laugh>.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (16:34):

And noticing teachers’ behaviors around going to and or avoiding math professional development that I was giving. Or getting sick. Or like having to leave the room for a long period of time. And so I began to notice these behaviors. And initially I thought I wanted to look at math anxiety in children, which is one branch of the research that I started with. But as I got into things more, the people that I have the most influence in are adults right now.

Dan Meyer (17:09):

Right.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (17:09):

And so as I started looking at the research that had already been done, I feel like we do a really nice job of admiring the problem of math anxiety, and we do less in the “what to do about” phase. And so I was like, “Well, if I’m going to continue to be in this career and in this profession, then I need to be doing something in the space of ‘what are we gonna do about it?’” And so that’s how I switched to looking at “what do we do to help teachers?” Particularly elementary school teachers, because that’s the area of greatest need, based on previous research that we could at least do something to help.

Dan Meyer (17:51):

Yeah. A previous guest mentioned that a lot of research is better understood as me-search, especially in this kind of arena, where we’re going back in to try to understand what it was that happened for us and how to prevent it for future generations. And I have nothing but respect for that motivation right there. And your point is well-put, that it is very possible to spend a ton of time examining math anxiety from every angle, every facet, you know, put it up there on a mounted board and admire it … and there’s a lot of value there, but I appreciate that you’re moving into, “So, now what?”

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (18:27):

Yep.

Dan Meyer (18:28):

And so I’d love if you’d share with us and our listeners the broad details of your study, and what you ultimately found. Like, if there are any large takeaways here, what were they?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (18:40):

Yeah. So a couple of things to kind of just lay a little bit of the groundwork. One out of four teachers say that they have math anxiety. Those numbers increase rapidly, the younger of the grades that the teachers teach. So if we think about preK to two, it’s about 88%, based on other people’s research. So I was like, “Well that’s a lot of people <laugh>!” And so, that’s the scope of the problem. And so I was thinking, “OK, what do we do in these moments?” Because other researchers had said they’re spending — when they don’t like it, they’re spending less time teaching math and avoiding it, or relying on methods that were done to us. Just out of fear of trying something different, at many times. And so one thing that has become more prominent in math education since I transitioned 16 years ago into this has been the role of coaches in school systems. And so one of the questions I wanted to think about was, “What can coaches or math specialists who work with adults as well do to help the teachers that they work with?” So that was kind of the lens that I was looking at. Like, let’s think about the systems that we currently have in place. Is there something that we could be doing that would help teachers, that wouldn’t be so huge or so monumental that with little shifts in our own behavior as coaches or professional development providers that we could make that would make a difference? So that being said, this was a qualitative study, so a small group of people in very intense settings. So I kind of always wanna preface that, because in academic world, you know, there’s <laugh> all sorts of thoughts about that. So I had asked teachers from districts that I work with who self-identified as having math anxiety if they would be interested in the study. So, this is what we’re thinking of, this is what it would look like, and the scope of the support they would have.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (20:50):

So basically you’re tracking these four teachers who self-identified as math anxious. And were you serving as their coach and kind of seeing what was working?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (21:00):

I was serving as their coach. Yeah. I was serving as their coach during that time period. And some fairly recent research that had been done was in the idea of “Can we do some reflective conversations or reflective writing around where your math anxiety started, and how that makes you feel both as a teacher of mathematics now, because you are teaching math, and how that affects your identity as a mathematician?” And so that was the first starting point. And that was a really critical moment that I’m glad that I had stumbled across the research on, because it turned out that having someone hear and acknowledge that what happened to them was both wrong and inappropriate, in many cases, and in a couple instances, was traumatic and also abusive — that that mattered. That it was OK to feel anger and hurt and frustration based on what happened to you in the past. And then have that moment to reflect on, “OK, so what do you want the classroom environment that you’re building as a teacher to feel like for your students?” So it was turning that moment of how they felt to thinking about, then, what kind of environment do we wanna make within the math classroom? And what steps can we take to ensure that happens? So that was like, Step One is just thinking about what that looks like. What kind of math identities then do you want to create for your students? Because all of the teachers were very concerned with not continuing the cyclical nature that often happens with math anxiety, from teacher to student and back again.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (22:54):

Well, and even that validation, right? Like, how many of them hadn’t even had, like you said, had that? We had another, when in our first episode, Dr. Gerardo Ramirez talked about that validation and how key.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (23:09):

Yeah. That was the first thing. The next step of it, which very different from what I often do — I don’t generally go in and model for teachers — just me, taking over your classroom. I really like to co-plan with teachers and co-teach with teachers and have it not feel like they’re losing control over what’s happening in that moment. And that’s generally the way that I go in when I’m doing professional development in a classroom, right? Like, I’m working with the teacher and we’re a team; we’re doing this together. But in these four cases, these teachers were very, very resistant <laughs> to co-teaching. And so I said, “OK, well, let’s throw everything out. Let’s try whatever it happens to be.” So the modeling aspect turned out to be really important, in part when three out of the four cases, because they were like, “Oh, I can do that.” <laugh> like, Well, yeah, I know you can! Like, it was that having a moment to sit back and see someone else doing it — which is harder to do when you’re co-teaching, right? It’s harder to be reflective in the moment when you’re still thinking about the teaching choices you’re making, because you’re both co-teaching.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:24):

Right. Or sometimes you see, like in co-teaching, it falls into “one teach, one manage,” you know, or something like that.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (24:31):

Yes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (24:31):

I have definitely fallen into that. But you, by modeling … it was almost, I don’t know, it feels like you’re kind of holding their hand. Like, “I’ll show you!” And not that it has to exactly look like that, right? But you found if a coach is coming in and the teacher gets to sit back and basically watch their students learn, they’re probably gettinga ton of information about their students, and they’re really learning some teaching strategies for mathematics that they can then like dip their toe in. I think? <Laugh> Am I kind of thinking of this? I’m trying to picture this and it feels rich and rife with possibilities <laugh>.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (25:16):

Well, and it, it turned it from … I think sometimes, when I go into a classroom, I learn so much from watching teachers and being able to sit and listen to students, that you don’t always have the luxury of when you’re the teacher. <Laugh> Right? It’s so much harder to be like, “OK, I’m gonna be watching what a kid does, because I’m hoping someone uses this strategy, so I can connect it to this other person’s strategy, so that we can take that apart and look at it and really have immediate discussion around it.” Those are all so many things that are happening in the moment as a teacher. You don’t get to sit back and look at it from a researcher kind of lens. Or look, you know, from the up-above lens. And when I had these conversations with teachers, I was like, “That’s what I want you to do. I want you to be able to sit back and look at all the things that are happening.” Because then you begin to notice not only the moves that the teacher — in this case, me — who was modeling for them was doing, but also the student conversations. And it was almost like having a case study within that moment, where they got to sit back and just experience, versus thinking about all the decisions that they would make at the moment. So that was something that was really surprising to me.

Dan Meyer (26:33):

Yeah. And I love the idea that they’re seeing the pedagogical moves, but they’re also experiencing perhaps a sense of math that’s de-stressed. You know, they are allowing themselves to sit next to students and feel as though they are a student, in ways that if you’re co-teaching, you are still like enmeshed in the gears of the whole lesson. I wonder if that’s a part of this too. So I’m hearing from you that we’re taking these teachers who have all admitted to some math anxiety, and that one of the interventions, or one of the findings, was that modeling worked really well for, again, this set of teachers. But you modeling lessons that highlighted mathematics, that was less anxious, that helped the teachers see that students were engaging in really productive un-anxious ways, brave ways. Were there other kinds of takeaways that you experienced there?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (27:24):

Yeah. So in addition to that, we had to think about and start at Step One. One of the teachers that I worked with had done her student teaching with a teacher who had math anxiety, and who never taught math. And so she entered her teaching career, never having taught math before or seen it taught. And so in her situation, she had had one course in her teacher preparation program, that was on fractions.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (27:54):

That’s often the case, right? One math methods course! Help, we have to get it all in in this semester! <Laugh>

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (28:01):

<Laugh> Yes. And so she came in and said, “I feel like I have to start at the beginning.” And so there was no question that was inappropriate, or that we weren’t going to explore or think about. And so that was, I think, the starting place with that particular teacher. And then one other, who was kind of in her same age range, where we had to start thinking about, “OK, how did you learn as a learner? What ways are you seeing your students learn as learners? And then let’s focus on those first as the areas that you wanna explore in your teaching.” And so a lot of that ended up being much more visual and hands-on ways of exploring. And so those were some of the changes in, I think, pedagogy that were the most significant. In a couple of cases, these are early elementary teachers who had had one experience with manipulatives in their whole teaching career up until that point. And so one teacher brought me a bucket of Cuisenaire rods and said, “These are in my room. I don’t know what they are. <Laugh> Are we building things with them? Are they blocks that are just small? <Laugh> Like what are they for?”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:20):

Yes!

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (29:21):

And so, <laugh> it was that idea of, “OK, let’s, let’s explore all the different ways that we can use these, and that we can think about how your students might learn best with this particular tool that you have in your room.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:34):

So hearing you talk about this research — which by the way, I know, you’re like, for our listeners, it’s all, “Quick, boil down your years and hours of research and synthesize it for us.”

Dan Meyer (29:50):

Your life’s work.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (29:50):

In a little tiny neat package. But really though, even though I know there’s so many layers to your research, and your work with these teachers, I wanna flag for our listeners that even the things that you’ve identified for us, you were giving teachers space — as coach, giving teachers space, and validating their experience as a mathematician, as you know, as a young student, right? Making space for that experience and validating “Yeah, that was really lousy and your math anxiety is real.” Like, Step One is already powerful. And then you’re creating space where they get to be in their classroom as a learner, right? And have a lesson modeled. And then you’re creating more <laugh> space for them to learn and ask questions. And I have absolutely seen teachers like, “I don’t know what to do with these,” and kind of shove aside the district-provided tools or the curriculum-provided tools. And so even those things, Heidi — Dr. Heidi <laugh> — you know, even if … I don’t know, for me, I am listening to you and just holding those points in mind and feeling like that, alone, if a coach did even just that … I know there’s so much more to it, but what a powerful opportunity for reclaiming math as an educator, right? That’s what I’m feeling.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (31:25):

Well, and I was hoping that there wouldn’t be … I mean, OK, it’s a double-sided hope. If there was something like so novel and so fantastic that was so different from the things that we have already at our disposal, that would’ve made a much better book or dissertation. <Laugh> But the reality is, there are things that we already know work. And we don’t often take the time or, or are given the time to be able to explore those things. Right? So even as coaches, you have district initiatives or things like, “this is what we’re working on this year,” and that’s fantastic, right? We keep those things moving forward. But if we’re thinking about coaching teachers with math anxiety, no teacher with math anxiety is going to be coming to NCTM.

Dan Meyer (32:16):

Right. Right. Or the training.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (32:19):

Or the training. They’re like, “Oh, PD day? Literacy! Yes, please! Bye!” You know, it’s that piece of it. So when we have these moments, the coaching is the opportunity to provide that just-in-time kind of professional development for teachers, if we go at it in a slightly different way. It does not have to be huge. It can be things like, they feel that they’re stronger in literacy. Well, then, let’s explore some of the ideas around math, anxiety and math identity and examples of people who’ve overcome either those things or other barriers in their life. And how can those things help form not only your students’ math identity, but your math identity. And it gives entry points in ways that you have access to if you’re a person’s coach.

Dan Meyer (33:18):

So in that sense, I’d love to know from you, if someone came to you at a coach’s meeting at NCSM and asked you, “What is something I can do right now to support the teachers at my site and my district, who are commonly experiencing math anxiety?” What is something that you would offer them in that brief moment you had with that coach?

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (33:40):

So it is hearing their story first. That’s the big one. And then, can you, in your coaching, provide opportunities to slow down? We all have these pacing guides in some form or another, that drive the things that are coming. Is there a way that you can set up meetings a month or more in advance of the content that those teachers are going to teach? Can we explore a month in advance, that content? And ways to teach it and understand it? There’s the ways to teach it, but there’s also like, “What is this math and how do kids experience this math?” What kind of experiences do we want to have ourselves as learners and then have as kids? If we can create cycles like that, that then don’t feel so rushed. It’s so hard when we’re like, “Oh, we have a planning meeting and we’re meeting with our coach!” And you’re teaching this lesson tomorrow. “Learn all this stuff about adding and subtracting on a number line. Go!” It’s so fast. And so if we had those opportunities to build in cycles, where we could slow down that process, it would make a huge difference in the lives of so many teachers. And it’s finding that time and the willingness. If you listen to teachers, they will work with you. If you validate what happens to them, and acknowledge that sometimes that still happens to us. I mean, I still have experiences like that. Sometimes I’ll walk into a classroom and I’m like, “Oh, I forgot how to do that!” You know, like, “I’ve not reached that far in my remaking of my own education!”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (35:24):

Yehhhh, heh heh heh.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (35:25):

<laugh>. And you think, “I don’t wanna look like an idiot. I’m the math consultant who’s here to duh duh duh.” All of those things still come up. Yeah. And stopping and saying like, “OK, everybody, this is what’s happening to me right now.” <laugh> The vulnerability you have, you have to think about that. Even if you don’t have experiences of math anxiety in your own life. Let’s say you always rocked out in math, and you’re now a math specialist and you love it. You think it’s the most spectacular thing. There’s some other element in your life where you face some anxiety. All of us do. So it’s about thinking about, “OK, this is where I experience anxiety. Can I find that in the teachers that I work with? And then, can my teachers find that in the students they work with?” You know, the teachers, as they begin to reflect on their own experiences, began noticing which students always went to the nurse during math time, always asked to go to the bathroom during math time, always couldn’t find a pencil, or whatever it happened to be. And they began to be more aware of their students’ behaviors as well, and could then say, “Hey, let’s sit and talk about how you feel in math class. Like, I’ve been noticing that when it’s time for math, like your stomach hurts. Can we talk about like why that might be?” Because those teachers with math are more attuned, often, to those students. And so it just … the time factor, I guess is, is the bottom line.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (36:59):

I just wanna say, it’s so great to have you in the Lounge. Because I think you’re really bringing this perspective that we haven’t talked about, which … we are not expecting coaches to walk in and know it all. That’s actually the exact opposite. You are allowed to be vulnerable. We are not saying, “Come,” quote-unquote, “Fix this.” It’s like, “Hey, how can you facilitate and make space?” And I feel like you have given us just a taste of like how that might be possible. And you know, I think even if it’s just a chance for teachers to reflect on their own experience in math, even that would probably be kind of revolutionary for — and I don’t say that word lightly — for some PD spaces, especially if they have another peer in their team that is like quote-unquote, “a whiz,” or like, “Oh, I don’t feel like I can be vulnerable in my math anxiety because this teacher seems to know it all.” But you’re creating space where it’s like, “Hey, we all have strengths. We all have areas where we could support each other.” And I love that invitation for coaches. I love that invitation for teachers. And … yeah. I’m just, I’m so glad we get a snapshot of your research. Again, I know, I respect that this is not the whole thing!

Dan Meyer (38:22):

Can we find … is there a link to your dissertation in the show notes, for those of us who peruse dissertations? Can we add something here? Think about —

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (38:29):

Oh, I have no idea!

Dan Meyer (38:30):

Just think about it. Just think about it. But —

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (38:34):

It’s somewhere on ProQuest. It did get some. …

Dan Meyer (38:36):

Right on.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (38:36):

Is that a thing, Dan? Could I go, like, Google your dissertation?

Dan Meyer (38:39):

You definitely could. Yeah, for sure. It’s around. Yeah, same way. Well, that’s awesome. And I think it’s so helpful for those who write those enormous unwieldy essays to, you know, distill it in different ways. I hope it’s been … we’ve enjoyed so much, hearing you carve up a huge project into pieces that were really helpful for us to think about here in the Lounge. Thank you so much for coming on and hanging out with us. Dr. Sabnani, it’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (39:06):

Hey, I’m happy to do it any time. Always the biggest joy in the work that I do is little changes in a positive direction.

Dan Meyer (39:18):

Right on.

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (39:19):

That’s all that this is about. Right? Whether it’s kids, whether it’s teachers, whether it’s administration. The work that we all do is so valuable, and it is more and more difficult over time. And just giving ourselves a little bit of space to think about and acknowledge that, I think, is really important. So I appreciate you all making space as well. And thinking about this idea. Because <laugh> we’re math people! And we don’t have math anxiety! Right?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:51):

<laugh>

Dan Meyer (39:51):

So people would assume

Dr. Heidi Sabnani (39:54):

<laugh>. Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (39:54):

Thank you so much. You’re welcome back in the Lounge anytime. <laugh> Thanks so much for listening to our conversation with Dr. Heidi Sabnani, consultant and co-host of the show “Math for All.” I can’t get enough about talking about math anxiety!

Dan Meyer (40:13):

Especially from people who are working with teachers so closely.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (40:18):

Yes, totally. I loved that lens of, “Hey, look at what happens if we actually focus on the teacher’s experience and help them kind of reclaim this comfort, this sense of identity, relationship with math that’s positive. How does that impact their teaching?” I loved talking about it, and I’m really interested in how that work continues to evolve. So thank you so much Dr. Sabnani, for your time. And you know, listeners, please keep in touch with us on our Facebook, in our discussion group, Math Teacher Lounge Community, or you can find us on Twitter at MTL show.

Dan Meyer (40:58):

If you haven’t already, please subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get podcasts. Also, if you like what you’re hearing, please rate us and leave us a review. It will help more listeners find the show. And it just makes me and Bethany feel good about ourselves, too. You can find more information on all of Amplify’s shows at our new podcast hub. Go to Amplify.com/hub.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (41:20):

You know, Dan, I also always like to say, I find most of my podcasts through recommendations from other listeners, friends, folks. So if you like what you’re hearing, share it in your teacher lounge. Just, like, on break, turn it up and start vibing and having the conversation right there.

Dan Meyer (41:40):

Yep. Yep. I got a better idea. Take the link to this podcast and then copy it and find the longest — the thread in your inbox with the most people on it. One of those ones that’s like, someone accidentally cc’d like 500 people, everyone at your school. Press “reply.” This is crucial. Not “reply,” but “reply all.” Paste that link in. Press “send.” Watch what happens.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:04):

Nothing but good —

Dan Meyer (42:04):

Good fortune will be yours.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:06):

Nothing but good things can happen when you send this to 500 people in the next 10 minutes. Next time on Math Teacher Lounge, we’re gonna be joined by Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer of St. Mary’s College for a conversation about math anxiety, and specifically Dan, how parents and caregivers, how their disposition influences the way their kiddos feel about math.

Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer (42:29):

I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high-math-anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school year.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:40):

And get this, she’s gonna talk to us about an app that just might be something worth, you know, heading over to the app store for.

Dan Meyer (42:49):

I’ve used some apps, I have opinions, and I can’t wait. We just share recommendations on apps with Dr. Schaeffer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson (42:56):

That’s next time on Math Teacher Lounge. Thanks so much for listening.

Dan Meyer: (00:01)

Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. My name is Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:03)

And I’m Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Hello! Happy New Year! Hello, Dan Meyer.

Dan Meyer: (00:09)

HNY, Bethany. HNY to you and to all of the listeners out there in Math Teacher Lounge. HNY is the abbreviation that I use sometimes.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:18)

Oh, is that what that is? Is that—I wasn’t sure what that was. If on my birthday you send me HBD…no.

Dan Meyer: (00:25)

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:25)

No. Unacceptable.

Dan Meyer: (00:27)

I will. No, you want the full thing. To demonstrate my care for your birthday, I gotta spell the whole thing out. I’m just trying to stay relevant. You know, I’m just trying to stay relevant and youthful. So I’m using The Abreevs.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (00:38)

The Brevvies.

Dan Meyer: (00:40)

To the extent of even abbreviating the word “abbreviation.” . So, any New Year’s resolutions you wanna share with the listeners, Bethany? While you think, I’ll just share mine real quick here. This is the year of the perfect Wordle streak for yours truly, Dan Meyer. I’m going the full 365. Watch. Watch me do it, folks. I’m naming it here. Live on air. recorded on air. Perfect Wordle year. What you got for the listeners, Bethany?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:10)

Let’s see. It’s raining very hard here in Southern California, and my newest resolution is to embrace nature. My child wants nothing more than to go and splash in all the puddles.

Dan Meyer: (01:22)

Nice.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (01:23)

And be amongst the mud. And what I’m gonna keep telling myself—and so far, so far, I’ve been doing pretty good with this—thrive, child. Splash. Squish. We can dry you off. You will not melt. So I want to keep finding opportunities. Like, for instance, my response is, “It’s pouring rain. Let’s stay under covers and let’s read this book together!” And his response is like, banging on the windows, like, “Please let me go outside.” So I myself have some rain boots. I’m going to go forth and splash with my child. So hopefully you’ll see me doing that a bit more.

Dan Meyer: (02:08)

Love that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:09)

Ask me what I’m doing. I’m outside, splashing in nature.

Dan Meyer: (02:12)

I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but I have felt a bit like parenting is a means for rounding out aspects of my own personality that I have felt are—or habits or hobbies that are lacking. Like, I’ve never been real outdoorsy or into camping, but I don’t want that to limit my own kids’ aspirations or interests. So let’s do the thing that’s not super natural for me, for their own sake. Which is kind of what I’m hearing a little bit from you, which—that sounds exciting.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (02:35)

Do you wanna go camping together? Like, our families?

Dan Meyer: (02:38)

Uhhh. Let’s take this one off the air. I also love something that’s more relevant to a teachers audience that you said, that I think is super interesting, is how there’s ways that we can make the jobs harder for ourselves, that are optional. And what I hear from you is like, “I’m just not gonna freak out. We’re getting wet. We’re getting soggy. And I’m just not gonna freak out.” And I just think that that’s interesting to think about, the things that we take on, you know, that’s optional. Freaking out is optional, sometimes. And there’s other areas, I think, for parenting or for teaching, where it’s like, “Oh, do I really need to choose this particular battle?” And to reconsider that.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:19)

And in that spirit, our whole Wordle episode that we talked about? Do you remember you talked about how beautiful Wordle mistakes are, and how you keep learning from mistakes? I mean, you obviously want the final correct answer, but just, you know, when you get on a losing streak, Dan, I hope you’ll continue to pat yourself on the back.

Dan Meyer: (03:38)

Well, I will not be taking on a losing streak, or even lose one day. This is what’s gonna happen here. I’m just speaking that and putting it out in the universe.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:49)

Speak it!

Dan Meyer: (03:50)

But if it happens, I will be taking a long break from all human interaction. And lamenting, as I do.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (03:59)

Camping. Dan’s off in the woods, weeping.

Dan Meyer: (04:01)

That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Well, we wanna share with you folks—an exciting programming note is that we are currently working very hard on producing a special fifth season of this podcast. You thought the other seasons were special? Let me tell you, this fifth season gives new meaning to the word “special.” And we can’t wait to tell you more about that. But in the meantime, Bethany, you wanna tell ’em what we’re up to in the meantime?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (04:26)

Well, Dan and I went back and we were having a conversation about some of our most favorite conversations, or the conversations that people bring up to us. Like, when we were at the CMC conference, or NCTM, folks, when we talk about the podcast, they’re like, “Oh, I loved this one.” “Oh, I love this one.” And that, to me, I don’t know, that is exciting. And so, while we’re putting together this new season over these next few weeks, we’re gonna feature a few of our favorite conversations from our first four seasons. Dan, four seasons!

Dan Meyer: (04:59)

We’ve been at this for four seasons! And I do want to just emphasize something you said, Bethany: that all of our conversations are our favorite conversations. They’re all our special children. What we just felt like you, the listeners, did not quite learn enough from some of these, and so we really needed you to hear them again to make sure you got everything that you should get out of them. So, let’s tell ’em who’s up first. And who’s up first is a conversation we had about problem-solving with Fawn Nguyen, who’s an advanced math team specialist here at Amplify. Been a former math coach, math teacher. Just really done the work, is what I’d say about Fawn.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:38)

If you have been listening to this podcast, you’re like, “Whoa, whoa. Wait, I have not missed an episode. I didn’t hear Fawn’s interview.” That is because we used to be video only, not podcasts. So this conversation with Fawn was from, what, our second season?

Dan Meyer: (05:55)

Yeah.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (05:56)

And we were on video. And another thing about it is it was, this is a conversation that, when folks talk about problem-solving, a lot of the responses we’ve gotten are like, “Wait, I’ve never thought of problem-solving this way.” In fact, you’ll hear us say that exact thing . So we really appreciated the time with Fawn. And yeah.

Dan Meyer: (06:17)

Enjoy it, folks. Especially enjoy Fawn’s—I think a four-part?—definition of problem-solving, a word that’s often kind of mushily defined. And Fawn really goes into, I think, precision and depth on it. So hope you folks enjoy it.

Dan Meyer: (06:35)

Give a wave, Fawn, to the camera. Would you? Cool. Fawn has been a teacher for a very long time. She is someone who could have left the classroom at any point and taken any number of jobs in the math-teaching universe. But I’ve always admired that Fawn has taught kids for a very long time, and that has given her, in my view, just a lot of clarity on what is important to her about students. I’ve seen her not get upset or obsessed with certain kinds of small niche issues that a lot of us, like, they get a lot of us down in the classroom, sometimes. And she’s maintained a laser focus on among many other things, problem-solving as a virtue in mathematics classrooms. So, please welcome Fawn to our show. Fawn, thanks so much for being here.

Fawn Nguyen: (07:18)

Hey, thank you so much. Thank you. I am so excited and honored that you guys invited me for this, Bethany and Dan.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (07:24)

Thank you for being here.

Fawn Nguyen: (07:26)

I love you, Bethany. Dan, I can tolerate, but I love you.

Dan Meyer: (07:30)

I really worked myself up there on that complimentary opening for you, and that’s how you get me back, here? OK. Problem-solving is fully on the consciousness of math teachers. Every math teacher knows that they need to say, like, “Yeah, oh, problem-solving. Yes. Love it. Do it. I dig it.” But even so, I feel like it’s become kind of a buzzword. Like, it’s not always obvious what that means…or am I doing problem-solving, really? So we’re curious: As someone who is a problem-solving expert, who is asked all over the world to talk about problem-solving: How do I know if I’m doing problem-solving in my classroom?

Fawn Nguyen: (08:12)

This is not my definition of it, but—nor am I an expert, by the way, Dan, thank you! but I try really, really hard and work on it!—my definition—or it’s not my definition, but I like it because it’s short and honest—is “problem-solving is what we do when we don’t know what to do.” And so—

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (08:32)

Ooh!

Fawn Nguyen: (08:32)

—with that mind-frame, I’m hoping teachers think more about what they task. Because I think it gets mislabeled a lot, as to what is problem-solving. If the kids already know what to do, there’s a solution path. Then it’s not problem-solving.

Dan Meyer: (08:48)

Yeah. So what are examples then? An example of, like, I might call something problem-solving, but it it fails that particular definition that you just proposed there. Very short, very honest definition.

Fawn Nguyen: (08:59)

Just, it needs to have constraint and contradiction to what the kids think naturally. It should come as a surprise. There’s an element of surprise in it. There’s tension.

Dan Meyer: (09:11)

Maybe if there’s harder numbers or, you know, decimals or fractions in the same kind of procedure…I can feel myself thinking, “Yeah, this is hard. This is problem-solving. Problem-solving equals hard. But we already know what to do.”

Fawn Nguyen: (09:27)

Or just word problems. That’s the most common thing. As soon as it just has words attached to the math, it becomes problem-solving. But that’s just coding it to me. That’s just coding it with words, wrapping it around. It doesn’t mean anything until we read through and see if there’s true problem-solving in it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (09:45)

Like, what’s the moment that it becomes problem-solving? In the way that you envision it?

Fawn Nguyen: (09:53)

Well, I think there’s the bigger problem-solving of really bringing a task…I wanna call it left field. It just—we rarely ever, if ever, see it in the regular coursework, but it can also be problem-solving if we just take what we expect the children to do at the end of the unit, how about we front-load that? To me, that’s also problem-solving. And I’m trying to encourage teachers to do that last problem first. The task writers put more thought—not that they don’t do the rest of it!—but you know, this is a special one, because they label it “challenge,” or “enrichment,” or “are you ready for more?” I’ve seen those. And so it is this really special problem. And I would love for us to think about “do that first.” Because my biggest fear is that because it comes at the end, that not all the children are involved. And so that to me is the saddest part. Because we might not get to it, right? In mathematics, we always think, “OK, well, let’s do these problems and then we don’t have time for the rest.” But I think that’s your richest task right there, is at the very end. So why don’t we front-load it, start it, and it’s OK—of course it’s OK!—that we don’t all get it. But the exposure to all students is so important. Talk about, you know, equity. Talk about that, everybody gets the same thing. If everyone dug into that first one with everybody’s collaboration, and we get to share that, and then we leave it, because “Yeah, OK, now we learn more of the other stuff, right? That hopefully support. And then we can go back. And now everybody had a chance to go get into it, and then we can come back to it as, as many problems, we need to go back to it.”

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (11:37)

And that feels so powerful. Because it feels like—as a teacher, I’m thinking it would also inform my work, how I approach the unit, and how I approach the next steps. Right? Like, what kind of work would we be doing if I let it, if I allow it, to change the way that I approach the unit.

Dan Meyer: (11:58)

Yeah. What you’re describing is so powerful, and really asks a lot of the task designers as well, I think. There are problem-solving tasks that really require, like, abstract knowledge of the way formulas and variables fit together. And what I love about what Amplify is doing with their problem-solving, what you’re helping them do, is that they start with a true low floor that can draw in every student. And they might get stuck at different places; that’s fine. But everyone has a way in. That’s exciting.

Fawn Nguyen: (12:24)

It’s a big deal for me to have this opportunity and this trust, to integrate problem-solving into the curriculum, make it intentional. It’s difficult to implement. It is, to be honest. Because for me, what is a good task? This makes one of my four criteria: One is, it is non-routine. It is simply stated. Simply stated—that’s like your low floor. And then has multiple solutions. And the fourth: This makes it. Because that the teacher enjoys solving it. And so you have to enjoy solving it to bring it. Because so that way I can say to my kids, “This is my gift.” It really is, Because, you know, it has so much fun and joy. And I appreciate the struggle. And I wanna illustrate an example. For example, let’s say Dan and I are classmates. And I know that Dan gets A’s on his tests and the lowest score he ever got was an 89%. I, on the other hand, just sitting right next to him, I average D. I have a D average on everything. While Bethany, our amazing and wonderful teacher, brings in a problem. And when she brings it in, she says, “I worked on this problem. I found this problem; I worked on it; and I struggled with it. And it was amazing. I enjoyed it so much, I’m sharing it with you.” And all of a sudden it’s like, “OK!” And I”m sitting there, right? My teacher loves this problem so much; she’s bringing it in to share with us. And now, all of a sudden, it’s not, you know…and I know she only gives us non-routine. When she talks about problem-solving, it’s non-routine. So it’s not directly tied to the textbook that I’ve been struggling with. So it gives me a chance, it gives me a chance to contribute. To think differently. And now, suddenly I look forward to working with Dan, because in this space, in this problem-solving space, Dan is no longer Mr. Know-It-All. And so that’s what I mean by—I am saying this a hundred times, and I will not stop saying it—problem-solving levels the playing field. Our world is filled with unsolved problems. Are you kidding me? Right? We look around us, we have so many things that are not solvable, or people are working on it, and yet in mathematics, what happens? The bell rings; we start; and we solve everything during that time, and we leave. And that’s…yeah. No! No! We need to wrestle with problems.

Dan Meyer: (15:04)

And that was our conversation with Fawn Nguyen, which we first released way back in November, 2021. You folks can follow Fawn on Twitter at Fawn P Nguyen. Um, that’s @ F A W N P N G U Y E N.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (15:18)

So our episode today is a double feature. We are featuring another conversation that we loved from Season Two. This is a conversation with Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind. They’re authors of the book, “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math.” And I don’t know if you remember, but not only did we have a conversation with them, but we did a whole book study on Facebook, a Facebook Live book study, over the course of several months. And it was one of my most favorite things. And then they did a webinar at the end. So our conversation with them on the podcast for me felt like such a beautiful dive into their book. And you know, I’ve said it before, you think you have something down in the classroom, you’re like, “Oh, hand-raising, I’ve got that down.” You think you have it down, but then somebody says, “OK, but have you ever considered thiiiis?” You know, and it just—

Dan Meyer: (16:17)

NOT that??

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:18)

, Not that? Something totally different? And I loved talking with them. They’re a lot of fun. And I loved the book.

Dan Meyer: (16:23)

Wonderful conversation, great book. Very provocative ideas. Yeah. As someone who’s like, “OK, classroom management, I gotta get the hand-raising going…”. In the classroom before we talked, they offered a really potent challenge to some really standard classroom management ideas. Yeah. Loved it.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:40)

And this conversation also offers some really practical tips for facilitating student conversations. So we think you’ll enjoy it. Here’s our conversation with Christy and Kassia.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (16:53)

So today we are talking about “Hands Down, Speak Out: Listening and Talking Across Literacy and Math, K—5.” And we have the authors here, Kassia Omohundro Wedekind and Christy Hermann Thompson. Before we begin, let’s define what a hands-down conversation is. A hands-down conversation is just another way to structure discourse in your classroom. So in a typical classroom, you might see students raising their hand and waiting on a teacher to call on them before they share their ideas or engage in discussion. But in a hands-down conversation, it’s students’ ideas and voices that are taking the lead, and teachers are stepping back and focusing on listening and facilitating. Hello! Welcome to the Lounge.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (17:44)

Thank you. We’re excited to be here. We’re fans of Season One. So we’re ready to go.

Dan Meyer: (17:50)

I was a secondary teacher but I still found so much to love about the book. I think facilitating conversations is just generally challenging, and perhaps even more so in math, where answers feel so tightly dialed-in, in lots of ways. But I loved it. I would love for you to just explain to our audience, what is a hands-down conversation and how does that contrast with what might be standard practice for some people? For some classes?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (18:13)

We just started using the term hands-down conversation because we wanted to differentiate the fact that there are different times to have different types of dialogue in the math classroom, in the literacy classroom. And we use this as one of our tools. Right? It’s not that every day, all day long, we’re very against hand-raising and should never see that again. We find that having this as one of our tools will be where we make really clear to the students that this is a moment where we’re turning it over to you to negotiate the space and make the decisions about when your voice comes in and who speaks next. You know, carry on kind of like that dinner table or that playground or, you know, whatever is your natural habitat for talk. And bringing that into the classroom and then hoping that it also someday transfers back out of the classroom back into the real world.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (19:09)

For the teachers who feel like that’s terrifying to have students just start speaking, and speaking without any sort of control or my little equity sticks, my little popsicle sticks, or my popcorn, or whatever other thing they’re using, what would you say is the first step?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (19:25)

So I think recognizing and naming that fear is part of it. And then saying to yourself, “What’s the worst that could happen here?” You know, I think the worst that could happen is that nobody talks and it’s totally silent. Or on the other hand, everybody talks at the same time. And both of those things will happen! And so what? It’s gonna be messy. And if you just acknowledge that it’s gonna look messy, and that’s part of growing; that every child as they learn—and every adult—is messy as they grow.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (19:59)

And we have to see what kinds of things will happen in a hands-down conversation. Like there’s no prerequisite. You just start and then you see what happens. And those are the signs that tell you, “What can help this community grow as talkers and listeners? If everyone’s talking at the same time, and they’re kind of pushing each other over with their words by saying, “I have something to add!” “I have something to add!” or something like that, that’s a common thing that sometimes happens at the beginning. Then you know that the next step is to do some work about how to hold your thoughts back, how to add, wait for a space in the conversation to talk. And those are all things we need people to know out in the world.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (20:41)

So can you give an example of a micro-lesson that…well, first, what do you define as a micro-lesson? And then, what’s an example of one that maybe somebody who wants to dip their toe into the world of hands-down conversations that they could try?

Christy Hermann Thompson: (20:56)

The reason we call them micro-lessons is because we wanted to differentiate from the term mini lesson, which is out there and tends to describe about 10 or 15 minutes that might take place at the beginning of a work period of time. And this is much smaller than that. We usually follow a pretty predictable structure of naming. Here’s this thing that’s so helpful when we’re having conversations, and we love to especially be able to name something that a student had done: “Kaylee did this yesterday and it really helped us.” So what we might call that is, “And then here’s how Kaylee and other people might do that. They might do something like this.” And, you know, having a little anchor chart, so there’s a visual reminder of that skill. “So when we’re having a conversation today, you could try…”. And that’s basically a micro-lesson, just in a nutshell.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (21:51)

When I was doing these hands-down conversations and I had more space for myself to listen as a teacher, I’m like, “Well, look at those kids, like, slumped onto the ground, like, pulling the carpet apart, but they’re having this amazing conversation!” And so I learned that listening is a lot broader. So in this lesson that I’m thinking about, we just talk with kids about what are lots of different ways that listening can look like. Sometimes with younger kids, I’ll take pictures of them listening in different ways and we’ll notice things about them together. And then we invite them to talk with their Turn and Talk partner about like, “How do you like to be listened to?” Or “Tell me about how you listen.” And just kind of broaden that. And really, I like to think that like the micro-lessons are for the kids, but also I’m saying those things to say them for myself. Like, “Remember, you don’t have to insist that kids are staring each other down in the eyes all the time. Like, “It’s OK when they’re doing other things. There’s other ways of listening.” So I think I’ve learned as much from the micro-lessons each time I do them as the kids that I’m trying to help grow as listeners and talkers, as well.

Dan Meyer: (23:00)

You folks have a lot of really eloquent ideals you express, around democratic classrooms and engagement. But you also have just some very tangible, practical…even down to, like, how a teacher positions their body in space and the way they use their eyes to connect. I think it would be really helpful for teachers to hear that it’s not just they’re signing on to a manifesto of sorts, but there’s ways they can act their way into the beliefs that you both expressed here.

Christy Hermann Thompson: (23:26)

When I’m starting hands-down conversation work, if I put myself a little bit outside of the circle and look down, and give myself a clipboard, it, it helps me bite my tongue and it helps me give better wait time and see what the kids are doing before I have that tendency to jump in and teach and do lots of teacher-y things.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (23:48)

Kassia and Christy, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have this conversation and to share your work. This is exciting. And I feel like this conversation is just the beginning of a deeper dive into this book.

Kassia Omohundro Wedekind: (24:01)

Thanks for having us.

Christy Hermann Thompson: (24:02)

Thank you.

Dan Meyer: (24:03)

Thank you both.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:06)

Thanks so much for listening to our conversations with Fawn Nguyen and Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind, both of which were released in 2021, part of our second season. And, you know, we hoped you enjoyed listening to it for a first, second, maybe third, fourth time.

Dan Meyer: (24:24)

Let’s be real. There’s some real fans out there.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:26)

We loved it then. We love it now!

Dan Meyer: (24:28)

Yep, yep, yep. Please keep in touch with the show by following us on Twitter at MTL Show, and join our Facebook group, the Math Teacher Lounge community. We’d love to hear from you there. And please stay tuned for more info on what we’re cooking up here in the Math Teacher Lounge. Thank you folks for listening. Take care, Bethany.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: (24:47)

Bye now.